#1 04-11-2009 11:36:20

Gary Donoghue
Harwich Runner
Registered: 03-11-2008
Posts: 183

Internal League 2009/2010 Rule Amendments???

Ok. Firstly two apologies. First for apparently setting the cat among the pigeons by submitting my IL scoring suggestions at last night's AGM and second for not being there in person to discuss them/take the abuse (delete as appropriate)! I had made the committee aware that a long-standing previous engagement would prevent me attending last night. Perhaps there should be a third for ensuring the AGM went on a lot longer than planned as a result. Oops!

To be fair I didn't have a lot of choice as my email was actually a summary of various emails that have been submitted to me by members in relation to the IL that I have been administering this year - and I had promised those people that I'd submit the comments for debate at the AGM as the annual forum where such things are debated and then either thrown out or incorporated. In previous years there have been tweaks to the IL (e.g. Miranda's suggestion was accepted a few years ago that the IL should award any runner of the month with 3 points in the IL). So changes are not unprecedented.

Now I understand that nothing has been agreed or rejected as no vote was taken. It has been suggested that the various rule changes put forward be placed here and a debate ensue before the next IL 2009/2010 kicks off proper...so here goes:

Amendment 1: Drop the double points awarded for a PB in a marathon only and state than in ANY race distance you run, if you make a PB you get a flat extra 2 points for that race.

Amendment 2: You can only score 5 points for a single marathon in 1 year. Additional marathons run reverts to 2 points for a 'normal' race of the 5 additional races you're allowed.

Amendment 3: If you run an ultra then this counts as a marathon in terms of points if you've not already run one before in this IL year.

Amendment 4: You score 3 points for running a single 20 miler, Any other races of this distance reverts to 2 points for normal race of the 5 additional races you're allowed.

Amendment 5: You score 3 points for running a single 1/2 marathon, Any other races of this distance reverts to 2 points for normal race of the 5 additional races you're allowed.

Amendment 6: If you run in a XC and do not complete the race (out due to injury during race or get lost in woods for example) you still get 1 pt for turning up and representing your club.

Amendments 1-5 are still bound by the ruling that you only score for such races if they do not conflict with a nominated league race, cross country race or handicap.

Let me know what you think...it's your Internal League so please let me know.

Cheers

Gary

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#2 04-11-2009 11:47:46

Graeme
Administrator
Registered: 03-11-2008
Posts: 277

Re: Internal League 2009/2010 Rule Amendments???

Gary Donoghue wrote:

Amendment 1: Drop the double points awarded for a PB in a marathon only and state than in ANY race distance you run, if you make a PB you get a flat extra 2 points for that race.

Like it - if your happy to score it

Could also add "if you break a club record you get 100 points".

Gary Donoghue wrote:

Amendment 2: You can only score 5 points for a single marathon in 1 year. Additional marathons run reverts to 2 points for a 'normal' race of the 5 additional races you're allowed.

As is already

Gary Donoghue wrote:

Amendment 3: If you run an ultra then this counts as a marathon in terms of points if you've not already run one before in this IL year.

Sounds good

Gary Donoghue wrote:

Amendment 4: You score 3 points for running a single 20 miler, Any other races of this distance reverts to 2 points for normal race of the 5 additional races you're allowed.

Amendment 5: You score 3 points for running a single 1/2 marathon, Any other races of this distance reverts to 2 points for normal race of the 5 additional races you're allowed.

Nope, I'm confused just reading it.

Gary Donoghue wrote:

Amendment 6: If you run in a XC and do not complete the race (out due to injury during race or get lost in woods for example) you still get 1 pt for turning up and representing your club.

No, don't like it. It should read "if you don't finish you get 10 lashes & -10 points"
If not we'll get the lame "my shoe fell to bits" (whats wrong with barefoot)

Gary Donoghue wrote:

Amendments 1-5 are still bound by the ruling that you only score for such races if they do not conflict with a nominated league race, cross country race or handicap.

As is.

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#3 04-11-2009 13:35:12

Gary Donoghue
Harwich Runner
Registered: 03-11-2008
Posts: 183

Re: Internal League 2009/2010 Rule Amendments???

Ok. In relation to Amendments 4 and 5, think of treating the 20 mile and 1/2 marathon distances in exactly the same way as we'd treat the full marathon distance - except that you'd get 3 points instead of 5 for each.

Example:

You run 2 x marathons, 2 x 20 milers and 3 x 1/2 marathons

Taking aside any PB points you'd accumulate...

5pts + 2pts for the marathons - the 2nd marathon taking up 1 of your 5 'extra' races allowed
3pts + 2pts for the 20 milers - the 2nd 20 miler taking up 1 of your 5 'extra' races allowed
3pts + 4pts for the 1/2 marathons - the 2nd and 3rd taking up 2 of your 5 'extra' races allowed

So at the end of this, you'd have 19 points and 1 more race to use for your 5 'extras' allowed in the year.

The intention of this amendment is to place both the 20 mile and 1/2 marathon distances on a similar footing to the marathon distance (i.e. at the moment, if you run a marathon you get 5 or 10 points irrespective of whether you run 5 extra races or not - so you effectively get 'extra' races on top of the 5 you're allowed beyond the listed league events). It was felt that the marathon was given special treatment above all other distances - deemed unfair.

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#4 04-11-2009 13:52:41

Gary Donoghue
Harwich Runner
Registered: 03-11-2008
Posts: 183

Re: Internal League 2009/2010 Rule Amendments???

BTW I'm happy to score the PB suggestion as we do now seem to be keeping tighter control over PB times for everyone. As for...

Could also add "if you break a club record you get 100 points".

...if you break a club record then you're likely to do a PB so you'd still only get 2 extra points :-) If, however, you break all the club records for all recognised distances in any one year then you'll automatically be given the job of IL administrator next year as a prize for being too d*mn good.

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#5 04-11-2009 14:30:10

Angela Walton
Harwich Runner
Registered: 04-11-2009
Posts: 2

Re: Internal League 2009/2010 Rule Amendments???

I dont really know how the points work, so dont know if my veiw is worth while. I am someone who has got a PB so far in every race I have entered. I havnt broke any club records and i'm definatly not the best runner in the club. my point is that i am a new and improving runner and may still have a few more PB's left in me yet. So if i am to get awarded these extra points it may possably put me in competion with one of the best runners, i dont know. Improving runners get noticed anyway with certificates (of which i have two and am very happy with) and so i think i dont need the extra points. Keep it simple for people like me. smile

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#6 04-11-2009 15:54:51

Gary Donoghue
Harwich Runner
Registered: 03-11-2008
Posts: 183

Re: Internal League 2009/2010 Rule Amendments???

Hi Angela

Don't worry at all - your point of view is as valid as anyone else's. As someone who has been hitting PBs regularly (nice one by the way!) then it's interesting to hear your perspective. When this PB idea was raised as a possibility a few months back the comment was made to me that 'the Internal League isn't about who wins it but to act as an encouragement to all runners in the club to participate'. The thought was that if it were known that you'd get more points for personal bests that this would act as an additional incentive to actually run in races - QED the point of the internal league.

It was additionally pointed out that we did already have a rule in the existing IL that gave double points for a marathon PB - 5 points for a marathon run and 10 points if you ran one for the first time or achieved a PB. Comment was 'why just the marathon? Why if you're recognising extra points should be awarded for a PB in one distance don't you award a PB for others too - this demeans the achievements of those running lesser distances but achieving the same result - to them at least'.

My view is that consistency should prevail in whatever is decided...if we award PB points then it should be consistent. If not then there should be no PB points at all...including the marathon distance and it'll then be purely about participation and, to a lesser extent for the 5 league races, cross countries and handicaps, about performance on the day.

Thanks for your feedback though. Very useful...

Last edited by Gary Donoghue (04-11-2009 15:55:34)

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#7 04-11-2009 17:22:25

Angela Walton
Harwich Runner
Registered: 04-11-2009
Posts: 2

Re: Internal League 2009/2010 Rule Amendments???

I now understand more thank you. I totaly agree that the points are there for encouragement to participate and to do your best. I can only say that  like most runners i am very competative and start every race with the aim of achiving a PB with or without the incentive of points, but I can see that points are a good thing and would'nt like to see them taken away. hope things sort out soon

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#8 04-11-2009 20:07:58

Anna Anderson
Harwich Runner
Registered: 19-11-2008
Posts: 62

Re: Internal League 2009/2010 Rule Amendments???

Hi Gary,

My thoughts as follows


Graeme wrote:

Gary Donoghue wrote:

Amendment 1: Drop the double points awarded for a PB in a marathon only and state than in ANY race distance you run, if you make a PB you get a flat extra 2 points for that race.

I like the idea of getting points for beating a previous time, adds motivation, encouragement and determination to do it again and again.  How you would police it might be difficult but everyone should be able to confirm PB's to you with trust and honesty attached.

Gary Donoghue wrote:

Amendment 2: You can only score 5 points for a single marathon in 1 year. Additional marathons run reverts to 2 points for a 'normal' race of the 5 additional races you're allowed.

Judging by Graeme's comment it seems that this is the case already so i guess it will stay the same.

Gary Donoghue wrote:

Amendment 3: If you run an ultra then this counts as a marathon in terms of points if you've not already run one before in this IL year.

Sounds good

Gary Donoghue wrote:

Amendment 4: You score 3 points for running a single 20 miler, Any other races of this distance reverts to 2 points for normal race of the 5 additional races you're allowed.

I think the current scoring with the additional points for PB's should cover this without making further confusion.

Amendment 5: You score 3 points for running a single 1/2 marathon, Any other races of this distance reverts to 2 points for normal race of the 5 additional races you're allowed.

Nope, prefer the scoring system mentioned before for marathom,half etc this option is confusing.

Gary Donoghue wrote:

Amendment 6: If you run in a XC and do not complete the race (out due to injury during race or get lost in woods for example) you still get 1 pt for turning up and representing your club.

Every race you are representing your club and don't get points for turning up and not finishing, not sure why we would want to award DNF.

Gary Donoghue wrote:

Amendments 1-5 are still bound by the ruling that you only score for such races if they do not conflict with a nominated league race, cross country race or handicap.

As is.

Hope that helps and many thanks for keeping the league up to date so far..

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#9 05-11-2009 09:46:15

Gary Donoghue
Harwich Runner
Registered: 03-11-2008
Posts: 183

Re: Internal League 2009/2010 Rule Amendments???

Hi Anna

Many thanks for your comments. Amendment 1 was submitted separately to Amendments 4 and 5 so maybe your idea is an excellent compromise...essentially award extra points for PBs but completely drop any 'special' treatment of marathons (the 5 points or 10) so that they simply fall into the category of extra races - and thus also drop Amendment 4 and 5 completely for 20 milers and 1/2s.

If we were to do this then I'd personally suggest that the number of extra races be raised from 5 to 6 in any one IL year - to account for the loss of the marathon as a separate 'special' scoring race with potentially 10 points up for grabs.

Amendment 6 was submitted by a few people specifically because they knew of people who had dropped out of a specific XC due to injury (or, as Graeme mentioned, loss of footwear!). It was felt that the special nature of the XCs warranted special treatment if you'd bothered to turn out...but I think your point is a valid one: if you turn out and wear your HR vest for ANY race then would you not therefore feel entitled to participation points.

Perhaps we ought to do this?!! Award a single point for starting a 'scoring' race, and the remainder for completing it!

Uh Oh...I sense hornets buzzing but thanks for adding to the debate. It is helping...

Cheers

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#10 05-11-2009 11:57:41

Miranda Rayner
Harwich Runner
Registered: 03-11-2008
Posts: 85

Re: Internal League 2009/2010 Rule Amendments???

I think there may be an underlying question here.
What is the IL for?
Do we want it to be won by the best runner in the club? As Peter pointed out at the AGM there is no other award for this. If we weight PBs too much this will not work.
Is it to encourage representing the club? If so then just count up how many times everyone turns out and give it to the most prolific.
Is it to encourage improvement? As was said on Tuesday, we have a separate trophy for most improved.

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#11 05-11-2009 13:12:22

Becky McCorquodale
Harwich Runner
Registered: 03-11-2008
Posts: 235

Re: Internal League 2009/2010 Rule Amendments???

Some very good suggestions raised. Personally, I agree that marathons shouldn't really get special treatment, but if you are going to award one with extra points, then ultras should automatically get extra points too. Love the idea of 100 points for breaking club records wink tongue Not sure I agree that half marathons and 20s should get extra points-feel this discriminates against newer runners who have yet to build up to racing those sort of distances.

Just wondered if Gary could clarify what he meant with PBs scoring 2 points, though. Does this mean any race that you PB in, whether it is an IL nominated race or not, or would it only stand for races that are counters for the league?

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#12 05-11-2009 18:20:46

Graeme
Administrator
Registered: 03-11-2008
Posts: 277

Re: Internal League 2009/2010 Rule Amendments???

Miranda Rayner wrote:

I think there may be an underlying question here.
What is the IL for?
Do we want it to be won by the best runner in the club? As Peter pointed out at the AGM there is no other award for this. If we weight PBs too much this will not work.
Is it to encourage representing the club? If so then just count up how many times everyone turns out and give it to the most prolific.
Is it to encourage improvement? As was said on Tuesday, we have a separate trophy for most improved.

hmmmm Miranda, define "best"

Some may say thats easy it's Becky & she won last year.
I could (but wouldn't) argue that others are better as results were a higher club standard.
But if all the times were age related Glyn would thrash us all I think.

I say the IL is there to encourage participation of members in local races.
I remember (a very very very long time ago) Jason was (thinner than he is now) consistantly the clubs best runner by far & he would take part in all the races beating everyone & therefore winning the IL. This was raised at the AGM as being unfair as the fastest runner would always win & changes were made.

I think by adding PB points it would create a variation of winners.
If you add club record 100 points that would allow another variation... why 100? well club records arn't easy to get & they are getting harder all the time.

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#13 05-11-2009 18:38:22

Gary Donoghue
Harwich Runner
Registered: 03-11-2008
Posts: 183

Re: Internal League 2009/2010 Rule Amendments???

Thanks for this all of you. My personal view remains that the IL is there to encourage people to participate in running races in general and to represent the club races identified by the club as important - namely the XC series, the handicaps and some key races each year. Only one person can win it...but many people will come close - so anything that encourages people to take part, in this case by virtue of them achieving personal bests, would receive my vote.

As it was submitted to me the PB suggestion was not specific but by NOT mentioning it I took to imply extra points for any of the league races and your 5 additional races - if we did otherwise I think it would be a bit illogical and unfair: you'd be rewarded for improved performance only if you were running in one of the selected league races.

I do believe, personally, that the marathon points are anathema: you receive extra points for running one (I didn't know about the existing rule that you could only receive one set of points - that hasn't been documented in anything I've seen on the IL) and, additionally, you receive extra points for a PB too.

Having read Anna's ideas I think that would be the way to go...drop the special treatment for marathons and decide to include a 'flat rate' for extra points if you hit a PB. Whether it should be 2 pts, 1 pt or 20 pts is, I suppose, worthy of some discussion (as Miranda has pointed out). I like 2pts myself. Doing this amendment would, I believe, iron out the inconsistency and special treatment that exists for the marathon distance. However, if we do this I'd like to see 6 extra races allowed and not the present 5.

In my view, just to be clear, you should not receive any additional points for breaking a club record - you'll undoubtedly receive your PB points after all in this context. Live with that!

So far the consensus on the idea of receiving 1pt for participating in a race is being given very short shrift!

Thanks again. Perhaps we are moving to some kind of consensus. I will summarise feelings on amendments as I understand them over the weekend - hopefully once more members have contributed.

Thank you, as ever, for your feedback.

Gaz

Last edited by Gary Donoghue (08-11-2009 20:40:41)

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#14 08-11-2009 16:53:52

Carla Holroyd
Harwich Runner
Registered: 21-11-2008
Posts: 34

Re: Internal League 2009/2010 Rule Amendments???

Amendment 1:  I agree with the consensus that PBs should be rewarded with two points for the league races and as Gary has suggested for 6 extra races instead of 5 (if the extra points for a marathon are to be dropped).  This would mean that new, and presumably improving members, would be encouraged to take part in races, possibly gaining a pb at every race but they would be restricted to points they could claim thus meaning that everyone had a fair chance of winning the IL. 

I think that 100 points for a club record may be rather excessive as obviously it would then be the best runners winning every time!  Also there would be such a gap between the top runners and the rest that it could result in demotivation!

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#15 08-11-2009 17:38:56

Becky McCorquodale
Harwich Runner
Registered: 03-11-2008
Posts: 235

Re: Internal League 2009/2010 Rule Amendments???

I was only kidding about the 100 points for a club record idea (hence the wink) in my post! Quite agree that 2 points for the PB should be enough...

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#16 08-11-2009 20:53:54

Gary Donoghue
Harwich Runner
Registered: 03-11-2008
Posts: 183

Re: Internal League 2009/2010 Rule Amendments???

Thanks Becky...I'd kind of guessed that was the case tongue so no worries. Thanks for your feedback too Carla - but I reckon another aspect to consider on the PB issue is the question of whether you've run a distance for the first time. Under current rules, for the marathon you receive 10 points if you complete your first one (has to be a PB after all). I assume we'd be looking to award the 2pts for similar events run for the first time at 5K, 5 Miles, 10 Miles, 1/2 marathon, 20 miles AND the marathon - plus any ultras being run.

While we may be reaching a degree of consensus on this forum I'm not sure we presently have enough groundswell of support to actually suggest these changes are adopted - and, in any event, the new committee would have to meet to vote on any changes. I did speak with Peter G at the xc training today (nicer course by the way) and we agreed to update the present rulebook for the IL and to then distribute it to all members, ensuring that the definitive statement of the CURRENT rules were then placed, verbatim, on the website. So no more confusion about how the current IL is meant to work. I think that would help at least inform the debate in preparation for any potential amendments.

Peter and I will do this asap...

Cheers

Gaz

Last edited by Gary Donoghue (08-11-2009 20:54:53)

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